26 Oct
2003
26 Oct
'03
1:02 p.m.
... the world's cruftiest CGI.
http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/tech/openpostcode/
I've started off with a few places, others can add as they see fit. If
anyone wants to take the code, prettify it, fix bugs, write
documentation, make it compliant with the latest fashion in HTML and
templating, host it somewhere, or knit it into a nice tea cosy, please do.
--
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david
One person can change the world, but most of the time they shouldn't
-- Marge Simpson
26 Oct
26 Oct
11:01 p.m.
On Sun, Oct 26, 2003 at 01:02:54PM +0000, David Cantrell wrote:
... the world's cruftiest CGI.
http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/tech/openpostcode/
Hmm. Anyone who knows more about database right know whether recreating
this data is database right theft (the same question can potentially be
asked of using streetmap or similar to get the lat/longs for entry into
Openguides directly)
Cheers,
Dominic.
27 Oct
27 Oct
10:43 a.m.
On Sun 26 Oct 2003, David Cantrell <david(a)cantrell.org.uk> wrote:
What are you planning to do with the data? How are you going to prove
that you didn't nick it from streetmap?
Kake
1:23 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 10:43:34AM +0000, Kate L Pugh wrote:
On Sun 26 Oct 2003, David Cantrell
<david(a)cantrell.org.uk> wrote:
What are you planning to do
with the data?
Right now? Not a lot. With enough data, it would enable people to do
things like list all the FOOs within N distance of place M, given the
addresses of M and the FOOs.
How are you
going to prove
that you didn't nick it from streetmap?
Streetmap are as welcome to look at the source code as you are. I've
checked the code for Geography::NationalGrid too, to make sure that's
not doing anything naughty.
The real reason I did this is because people talked about it and there
was some vague muttering about registering a domain, but no-one DID
anything. I thought "ooh, that might be useful", so did it.
--
David Cantrell | Degenerate | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david
[OS X] appeals to me as a monk, a user, a compiler-of-apps, a
sometime coder, and an easily amused primate with a penchant
for those that are pretty, colorful, and make nice noises.
-- Dan Birchall, in The Monastery
5:14 p.m.
On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 01:23:24PM +0000, David Cantrell wrote:
Streetmap are as welcome to look at the source code as
you are. I've
checked the code for Geography::NationalGrid too, to make sure that's
not doing anything naughty.
The thing is, sure they can comb through the code, but there's nothing that
proves the source of the data itself. However, not being a lawyer, I don't
know on whom the burden of proof would be if we were taken to court - the
plaintiff, or the defendants? I don't see how either side could prove
anything. Anyone here know a lawyer?
The real reason I did this is because people talked
about it and there
was some vague muttering about registering a domain, but no-one DID
anything. I thought "ooh, that might be useful", so did it.
It is useful; thank you.
--
# Earle Martin http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?EarleMartin
$a="f695a9a2176a7dd1618af6649896ee10f05ea986de18af6277e9a1d8ef4696644569a1d".
"8ef46961ae1e64277e9896eea7d92ea8003e9a1d8ef4696f6950";$b="8ALB6AIA4.BA2";$c=
join"",unpack"C*",$b;$c=~s/7/2/g;@b=split"",$c;foreach$d(@b){$e=hex(substr($a
,$f,$d));while(length($e)<8){substr($e,0,0)=0;}print pack"b8",$e;$f+=$d;}
8:51 p.m.
Earle Martin wrote:
On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 01:23:24PM +0000, David
Cantrell wrote:
Yes, I realised on the way home this evening that kake had probably
meant what proof was there that users hadn't just cut n' pasted data
from streetmap. And of course there's no way for me to be able to tell.
Of course, the whole of Openguides suffers from this. Who can tell
whether some random review is cut n' pasted from (eg) the Evening
Standard's website?
And I think I owe an apology. I was far too grumpy when I posted this
afternoon.
--
Grand Inquisitor David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed
(and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an
endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary" -- H. L. Mencken
Streetmap are as welcome to look at the source
code as you are. I've
checked the code for Geography::NationalGrid too, to make sure that's
not doing anything naughty.
The thing is, sure they can comb through the code, but
there's nothing that
proves the source of the data itself. However, not being a lawyer, I don't
know on whom the burden of proof would be if we were taken to court - the
plaintiff, or the defendants? I don't see how either side could prove
anything. Anyone here know a lawyer?
28 Oct
28 Oct
12:44 p.m.
[ http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/tech/openpostcode/ ]
On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 10:43:34AM +0000, Kate L Pugh wrote:
> What are you planning to do with the data?
On Mon 27 Oct 2003, David Cantrell <david(a)cantrell.org.uk> wrote:
Right now? Not a lot. With enough data, it would
enable people to do
things like list all the FOOs within N distance of place M, given the
addresses of M and the FOOs.
OK, but the problem with the data attribution (see below) would need
to be solved before I'd consider relying on this for any application I
was involved with writing.
Kake:
> How are you going to prove that you didn't
nick it from streetmap?
Dave:
Streetmap are as welcome to look at the source code as
you are.
But that doesn't prove anything about where the data came from. If
Streetmap - or anyone else who licenses postcode data - can make a
convincing case that some of the data in your collection was harvested
from their site, then you run the risk of not being allowed to
distribute *any* of your carefully-collected data. And then any
applications which depend on your data will break.
The real reason I did this is because people talked
about it [...]
but no-one DID anything.
People who have thought about this kind of thing fairly carefully
include blech, jerakeen and Chris Heathcote. I'd recommend you have a
chat to at least one of those people if you plan to put much effort
into this project.
The direction I am going in is the one you and others suggested on
london-pm - the simple consideration that things in SW6 are going to
be fairly close to things in SW6 6LA. If CGI::Wiki's tests hadn't
been designed by someone with bananas for brains (ie me) then this
would be done by now.
Kake
PS - I'm sure you know this, but postcodes do change.
2:18 p.m.
[http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/tech/openpostcode]
On Tue, Oct 28, 2003 at 12:44:09PM +0000, Kate L Pugh wrote:
[CCed]
I don't see that it requires much thought really. It's a very simple
database. There's no *sensible* reason for it to be considered naughty.
On Mon 27 Oct 2003, David Cantrell
<david(a)cantrell.org.uk> wrote:
See also Openguides and its content, where you have no way of knowing
whether it's cut n' pasted from $payware_restaurant_review_site or
copied from a book.
On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 10:43:34AM +0000, Kate L
Pugh wrote:
OK, but the problem with the data attribution (see
below) would need
to be solved before I'd consider relying on this for any application I
was involved with writing. What are you planning to do with the data?
Right now? Not a lot. With enough data, it would enable people to do
things like list all the FOOs within N distance of place M, given the
addresses of M and the FOOs. The real
reason I did this is because people talked about it [...]
but no-one DID anything.
People who have thought about this kind of thing fairly
carefully
include blech, jerakeen and Chris Heathcote. I'd recommend you have a
chat to at least one of those people ... PS - I'm sure you know this, but postcodes do
change.
Yup. Thankfully they don't change often, or by much, and in comparison
to the number of codes, the number of changes is infinitesimal. ie, for
the purposes of figuring out where your nearest pub is, we don't have to
care.
--
Lord Protector David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david
There are many different types of sausages. The best are
from the north of England. The wurst are from Germany.
-- seen in alt.2eggs...
2:47 p.m.
On Tue, Oct 28, 2003 at 02:18:08PM +0000, David Cantrell wrote:
See also Openguides and its content, where you have no
way of knowing
whether it's cut n' pasted from $payware_restaurant_review_site or
copied from a book.
Only slightly; it's easy to prove something like a review was copied -
compare it against the original. Reviews have a high uniqueness level[0], and
running a diff against a review and a possible copy will quickly expose if
it's original or not. Postcodes, on the other hand, are a very short
alphanumeric string for which provenance is almost(?) impossible to
determine.
[0] I think the cryptographers call this "entropy".
--
# Earle Martin http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?EarleMartin
$a="f695a9a2176a7dd1618af6649896ee10f05ea986de18af6277e9a1d8ef4696644569a1d".
"8ef46961ae1e64277e9896eea7d92ea8003e9a1d8ef4696f6950";$b="8ALB6AIA4.BA2";$c=
join"",unpack"C*",$b;$c=~s/7/2/g;@b=split"",$c;foreach$d(@b){$e=hex(substr($a
,$f,$d));while(length($e)<8){substr($e,0,0)=0;}print pack"b8",$e;$f+=$d;}
7:47 p.m.
Earle Martin wrote:
On Tue, Oct 28, 2003 at 02:18:08PM +0000, David
Cantrell wrote:
Mmmm, fair point.
However, they wouldn't be bitching about the postcodes, but about the
map references related to them. I just checked two of my data points.
In both cases both the easting and northing are different to what
streetmap has. Understandable, because postal codes cover either one
very large place (such as a campus) or several smaller places (such as a
row of houses), and of course because it's a matter of judgement which
hundred meter division is closest to a chosen point.
--
David Cantrell | Reprobate | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david
This is a signature. There are many like it but this one is mine.
See also Openguides and its content, where you
have no way of knowing
whether it's cut n' pasted from $payware_restaurant_review_site or
copied from a book.
Only slightly; it's easy to prove something like a review
was copied -
compare it against the original. Reviews have a high uniqueness level[0], and
running a diff against a review and a possible copy will quickly expose if
it's original or not. Postcodes, on the other hand, are a very short
alphanumeric string for which provenance is almost(?) impossible to
determine.
7349
days inactive
7351
days old
openguides-dev@lists.openguides.org
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participants (4)
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Kate L Pugh