On Thu, Jun 10, 2004 at 04:01:06PM +0100, Kate L Pugh wrote:
What's the '<span class="hidden">' in navbar.tt all about?
On Thu 10 Jun 2004, Earle Martin earle@downlode.org wrote:
From 'Changes' for 0.31:
Numerous template tweaks to comply with the W3C's Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/): (...) - labels for all form input elements and some textual additions to templates, such as '/' separators between navbar items, because the guidelines specify links should not only be separated by whitespace. If you don't want these to appear, put the following in your stylesheet and they'll be hidden by CSS (but will still appear for people using textual browsers or screen readers): ".hidden { display: none }".
16:16 [msg grault] Hm. I'm not sure that "hidden" is a good name for the class. It's sort of a bit general. 16:17 grault(earle@mythix.re)-> Hmm. I was thinking that the class could be applied to other hidden content, but I'm not sure what that could be. 16:17 [msg grault] Yes, but if there was other hidden content you might want to hide some types but not others. 16:19 grault(earle@mythix.re)-> Hmm. Maybe something like .non_visual, or .accessibility 16:19 [msg grault] Post to the list, maybe. 16:19 grault(earle@mythix.re)-> Yeah.
Opinions?
Kake
On Thu, Jun 10, 2004 at 08:37:02PM +0100, Kate L Pugh wrote:
On Thu, Jun 10, 2004 at 04:01:06PM +0100, Kate L Pugh wrote:
What's the '<span class="hidden">' in navbar.tt all about?
On Thu 10 Jun 2004, Earle Martin earle@downlode.org wrote:
From 'Changes' for 0.31:
Numerous template tweaks to comply with the W3C's Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/): (...) - labels for all form input elements and some textual additions to templates, such as '/' separators between navbar items, because the guidelines specify links should not only be separated by whitespace. If you don't want these to appear, put the following in your stylesheet and they'll be hidden by CSS (but will still appear for people using textual browsers or screen readers): ".hidden { display: none }".
Make your navbar a <ul> element instead of DIV soup, that way you don't have to add those /'s in. The HTML may pass the letter of the WAI law, but a screen reader would have no clue about the relation of one DIV to another. The <ul> should have contextual markers, start of list, end of list, which would be the only 'hidden' content.
16:16 [msg grault] Hm. I'm not sure that "hidden" is a good name for the class. It's sort of a bit general. 16:17 grault(earle@mythix.re)-> Hmm. I was thinking that the class could be applied to other hidden content, but I'm not sure what that could be. 16:17 [msg grault] Yes, but if there was other hidden content you might want to hide some types but not others. 16:19 grault(earle@mythix.re)-> Hmm. Maybe something like .non_visual, or .accessibility 16:19 [msg grault] Post to the list, maybe. 16:19 grault(earle@mythix.re)-> Yeah.
Opinions?
.hidden is a fine name, if you needed it to appear elsewhere you'd just not specify it globally, eg
#navbar.hidden { display:none; } #find_within_distance.hidden { color:red; }
not:
.hidden { display:none; }
Stephen
On Thu 10 Jun 2004, Stephen Stewart beowulf@carisenda.com wrote:
Make your navbar a <ul> element instead of DIV soup, that way you don't have to add those /'s in. The HTML may pass the letter of the WAI law, but a screen reader would have no clue about the relation of one DIV to another. The <ul> should have contextual markers, start of list, end of list, which would be the only 'hidden' content.
When we were deciding how to do the template overhauls, Earle told me that using <ul>s and so on is a bad thing, but I can't remember why. Earle, can you remind us?
Kake
On Fri, Jun 11, 2004 at 01:39:45PM +0100, Kate L Pugh wrote:
On Thu 10 Jun 2004, Stephen Stewart beowulf@carisenda.com wrote:
Make your navbar a <ul> element instead of DIV soup, that way you don't have to add those /'s in. The HTML may pass the letter of the WAI law, but a screen reader would have no clue about the relation of one DIV to another. The <ul> should have contextual markers, start of list, end of list, which would be the only 'hidden' content.
When we were deciding how to do the template overhauls, Earle told me that using <ul>s and so on is a bad thing, but I can't remember why. Earle, can you remind us?
Unless Earle comes up with some lore of which I am not familiar, and tcha, that's not going to happen, <ul> or <ol> are better than the <div> structure you currently use. The common all garden <div> has no semantic meaning, other than box, and when you view a menu using div's a client looking for meaning in the structure, rather than the style, will go snow blind.
While I'm here you should use the HTML header tags <h1>, <h2> etc instead of: <strong><a href="http://london.openguides.org/index.cgi">The Open Guide to London</a></strong>
Again, this has no meaning outside of style, well it does actually, it means strong emphasis on 'The Open Guide to London', which is not the same as saying that it's a header, nor that's it's simply bold text. A screen reader might read that line in the same tone it would read the word 'furious' from the following: I'm not mad I'm *furious*! (http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2004/05/02/b-and-i # for more on strong vrs bold) Anyway, I'd advise use of the <h1>, <h2>, etc tags for headers.
My 2p's worth.
Stephen
On Fri, Jun 11, 2004 at 01:22:34PM -0700, Stephen Stewart wrote:
The common all garden <div> has no semantic meaning, other than box, and when you view a menu using div's a client looking for meaning in the structure, rather than the style, will go snow blind.
Well, I was trying to explicitly avoid associating any semantics with the navigation items. Does this mean I got the wrong end of the stick, then?
On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 02:21:23PM +0100, Earle Martin wrote:
On Fri, Jun 11, 2004 at 01:22:34PM -0700, Stephen Stewart wrote:
The common all garden <div> has no semantic meaning, other than box, and when you view a menu using div's a client looking for meaning in the structure, rather than the style, will go snow blind.
Well, I was trying to explicitly avoid associating any semantics with the navigation items. Does this mean I got the wrong end of the stick, then?
'Fraid so. The idea is to use the meanings of the HTML elements to give the document structure outside of the visual style. By using <h1> and <ul> instead of <div> you add structure to the document that means something to non graphical browsers and screen readers.
:)
Stephen
On Tue 15 Jun 2004, Stephen Stewart beowulf@carisenda.com wrote:
'Fraid so. The idea is to use the meanings of the HTML elements to give the document structure outside of the visual style. By using
<h1> and <ul> instead of <div> you add structure to the document that means something to non graphical browsers and screen readers.
I guess this means another round of template changes, then. Earle, do you want to be in charge of that?
Kake
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